dira | A compliation of my Endgame reaction posts from Tumblr

A compliation of my Endgame reaction posts from Tumblr

Under the tag: all the spoilers, none of the squee. Click at own risk.

My Endgame reactions on Tumblr today, a play in three acts.

#1

My reaction, after twelve hours:

[STOP READING THERE IF YOU REALLY ENJOYED THE MOVIE AND ARE HAPPY ABOUT HOW IT ENDED, I WAS UP REALLY LATE LAST NIGHT AND I’M TIRED! HAHA!]

…Anyway, I wish I actually meant that humorously in the sense that I was awake until 2 in the morning between seeing the movie and hashing out my feelings about it, but, no, I just mean…

Look, I can see ways to bend and twist and reconstruct the material that movie gave us into a lot of fun and enjoyable and great fic? But at this point I don’t even want to because I am just. so. fucking. tired. of engaging with a canon that thought THOSE were good endings for the characters I’ve spent a decade bonding with. What the actual fuck. I keep trying to like, rank the original six’s endings in order of which I am most to least mad about, but I just–what the actual everliving fuck.

Also it is sort of impressive, in a trainwrecky way, how many character arcs get warped into incoherence, grim futility, or total fucking nihilism by the gravitational pull of these endings. Like. Wow, I retroactively dislike other movies because this is apparently where you were going that whole time! AWESOME. THANKS I HATE IT.

https://dsudis.tumblr.com/post/184459811109/endgame-thoughts-i-guess-spoilers-under-the-cut

Another Endgame thought, this one about Steve and his storyline. Which I am not squeeing about in this post.

Okay, so, everyone always sees a different version of the same movie, right, we all know that.

But it is fucking SURREAL to see a character’s ending and go “wow that was an only barely metaphorical suicide concluding his six-movie arc of depression and alienation, I need to go huddle with The Magicians fans now” and then have people cheering about what a beautiful and romantic and life-affirming happy ending it was.

https://dsudis.tumblr.com/post/184465063904/another-endgame-thought-this-one-about-steve-and

#3

Third and perhaps most inevitable Endgame Thought

…oh no I just spent an hour plotting out the fic I want to write to fix EVERYTHING.

https://dsudis.tumblr.com/post/184467130094/third-and-perhaps-most-inevitable-endgame-thought

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm mad at them all over again for hurting oyu.

(BTW, the movie review I reblogged is NOT a refutation aimed at you. Despite disagreeing with her SO MUCH this time I love this reviewer and hope that I can get her signal boosted.)

(I hope this makes sense I am being Told about Pokemon as I try to think.)

Well, the fixit fic is up to about 2400 words, so... that... seems to be happening.

(I don't even know that I'm hurt, particularly, so much as angry? But whatever. I'm fixing it. *g*)

So, the stages of Fannish Grief. (I'm glad I'm subbed to you on AO3, so I'll read your fix-it ASAP)

I haven't heard about Bruce's ending: what is it?

You haven't heard about it because the movie didn't bother to give him one!! He's just kinda standing there for Steve's ending.

I think the narrative intention was basically that Bruce has already achieved his ~happy ending~ by successfully making peace between Banner and Hulk? But he did that like, three years before the main action of the movie and then just... continued on with ghosting all the other Avengers (while also being sorta benignly mildly famous?? for some reason????) and then was just sorta vaguely crestfallen about like, Nat dying, and Valkyrie not wanting to be pals anymore? But he? Ignored them? For five years??

So it's a shitty vague non-ending because the MCU has literally never known what to do with him!! Which is probably one of the least bad endings any of them get, so yay, I guess.

I got the chief Steve spoiler a while back -- or, rather, as soon as I learned that Peggy's voice was to be heard in one of the trailers, I knew the movie was going to send Steve to have a ~happy ending~ with her. And I like Peggy! But that is some bullshit and if I see the movie it will totally retroactively ruin the other movies for me, so ... well, I'm looking forward to your fic, that's all. (TBH, "There Is No Shortage of Blood" is canon, in my opinion. -- As are a couple of other fics, because, you know, different timelines. But never, ever, ever one where Steve is parted from Bucky.)

Whut.

OK, I'm not going to use up valuable brain cycles thinking about this, I will continue in my conviction that not seeing this in a theater (or any place where I can't pause or fast-forward) is a good life choice.

Word. The ending they gave Steve did not work for me, even while I actually enjoyed much of the movie. I could have gone with him going off script in the past, and staying, rather than choosing his connections in the present-day timeline (if a bit depressing from present-day Bucky and Sam's angle), but there is no way that with an extra, non-frozen Steve in the past we get a timeline where the movie events play out essentially like we saw (plus-minus some gems popping in and out) so Old!Steve can then meet them in a future close enough to the original that the post-Thanos events are the same.

He would not just have to stand by and watch the Hydra infiltration and Bucky's torture and assassination of Howard Stark and a number of awful events and not get involved, but somehow his life with Peggy needs to remain secret enough for Captain America to stay officially lost, the other him to stay in the ice to be found for the events of the first Avengers movie to unfold etc., even though people besides Peggy who knew him are also still around and Peggy has a life intersecting with all the alien and secret government events. It's not just really brain hurty in the usual time travel way, I honestly have a hard time imagining how Steve even could manage that, even if he wanted to.

I am however looking forward to the fanfic versions. Personally I'd really like to see more of that post first Avengers movie timeline branch (caused by their initial time travel) from the POV of the Steve who had his doppelganger drop in on him suddenly post alien invasion to fight, only to shock him with the claim that Bucky is alive. Does that Steve do a follow up and discovers Hydra a little earlier or more prepared?

I mean... I am absolutely there for #3 :)))

OH GOOD, I'm glad I haven't seen this / am probably not going to see this. *MASSIVE EYEROLL*

*sending you solidarity huddles from The Magicians fandom*

I made the same choice, and I am feeling really really good about this.

You are not wrong about any of that. And I'll add that in the course of the movie he exchanged not a single word with Tony, so that kind of sucked for me pairing-wise.

But the good part, for me anyway, is that because he spent the entire movie in the uncanny valley of not!Bruce and not!Hulk, it was almost like he wasn't even there. Every time he was on screen he basically negated the movie for me as something to take seriously - it was like he was a cartoon character in a live-action movie. Makes it a lot easier for me to emotionally exclude it all from canon as needed!

I woke up this morning thinking about Thor, cause his storyline really bothered me the most (cause after hours of ranting, thinking, and ~~arguing~~*koff* discussing the time travel aspects with Yomz I have decided that the last few minutes of Steve's storyline are a really badly written AU I can ignore).

What I thought as I woke up this morning was about how they totally disregarded Thor's growth in Ragnorak, because otherwise it's a question of "Is Thor really so fragile that he would have once again been totally broken by anything?" and as my brain started to automatically say scoff and deny that as a possibility, I thought...wait...maybe?

Because if it had not been played for laughs, then the fact that Thor was broken by the fact that he blames himself for everything would have been heartbreaking, consistent with his past questioning of himself (could have been redundant, or done well), and could have provided the emotional hearbreaking depth of the movie (instead of Nat sacrificing herself -- which is a whole nother discussion).

But because they played it for laughs 95% of the time he was on screen, it just felt like they disregardrd any of his growth and reset him to 0.

That!!!

I was a bit frustrated as a Stucky shipper (I hear you, Dira), but I was even more frustrated as a time travel logic and how would this work out in real time and there is no way Steve would live to exist IN THAT TIMELINE. (Said differently, if they had sent him back and left it there, I'd not have been happy but I wouldn't have been as frustrated about internal logic--he clearly would have spawned a different time line and not grown old in THEIRS)

And yes, my first thought was Steve'd never NOT interfere!!!!

Yeah, part of the reason I saw Steve's ending so much as basically a suicide was that I couldn't see any explanation but that it was some kind of pocket reality that didn't change actual reality--so he went and lived out the rest of his life in some dream. And even if it's supposed to be the main timeline, which doesn't make SENSE--and I will SCREAM VERY LOUDLY if someone tells me this is why they never told us the name of Peggy's husband, becasue it was Steve all along--it was effectively a meaningless dream because he clearly changed nothing so. Yeah. What even.

3600 words and counting.... @___@

I JUST. I CANNOT. With them deciding that the RIGHT ENDING for Steve, after all his time struggling to find a place and accept this new world and new life, was to say "yeah he can never heal and never move on and just has to go back to the 1940s and Peggy, and look at him smiling beatifically as an old man and his friends approving of his choice, clearly this was The Best Thing For Everyone." Just. WHAT.

Also, this needs his whole "HEA" with Peggy to be built on lies and deception, because I don't see Peggy letting the frozen Steve remain frozen to wake up unhappy in the future if Steve comes clean to her that he is a time traveling version of himself. So he would have to pretend he's coming back from the Arctic and lie to her as well. It's just gross, even if you want Steve to be totally hetero.

Even in the most hetero of universes where Bucky doesn't feature into Steve's romances at all, by dumping an extra Steve into the past who is honest with his live interest you end up with Steve1, Steve2, Peggy, and possibly Peggy's husband having to negotiate some sort of poly arrangements, if you don't want Steve to lie to the person who is supposed to be the love of his life.

It just seems worse the more I think about it. It's not a HEA if the hero has to permanently deceive the heroine to get together with her. I mean, does he lie to Peggy about being a time travel version of himself as well, so she won't dig up the frozen Steve earlier or change anything? It's just so gross, even through a Steve/Peggy shipping lense.

it's a good week for not letting people heal or grow, is what I'm learning

Ugh, I feel you on a deep seated level, especially with regards to Steve. I just don’t? Understand?? How people can think that was a wonderful ending for him??? Also it sucked as the ending before the credits because then I had s completely sour taste in my mouth for those gorgeous credits.

OTOH, I can’t help but be glad that the fixit-fic bug bit you 🤷🏾‍♀️

I can't tell you how happy this makes me....

yeah, Steve going back does not make sense in any way. If he did go back in this reality, which is apparent because he knows to meet them there at that time, then he either effectively changed this whole reality one hell of a lot (which the whole plot of the movie was "let's not change this reality, people" OR he was a hidden househusband (Peggy was interacting with people who would recognize him) who let 1) Zola torture/brainwash Bucky, etc and 2) Hydra grow in Shield and 3) Bucky kill Howard and...on and on and on.... NONE OF WHICH STEVE WOULD BE CONSTITUTIONALLY ABLE TO DO!!!!

oh thank fuck (sorry, I am just so glad that you are actually writing it)

Yes, I agree at it being a weird sort of dream but then HE SHOWS UP IN THEIR TIME LINE. Such lazy writing when they'd already given to us IN THE FILM the time travel explanation they used, which created alternate time lines.

Yes. All of that. I spent all day coming up with new ways it was fucked up!

He'd never let Bucky stay suffering, he wouldn't let him kill Tony's parents...he'd be Steve and Peggy'd be Peggy and they'd beat the heck out of early Hydra and it all could have worked in an alternate timeline except for the old Steve showing up in theirs. It was bad writing & stupid logic, and for a non SFF/comics crowd who needed to be TOLD. Heck, Bucky's smile alone told me that he knew, and he could have just given the other two a hint or whatever. Just argh!!!!

Ha, this is an f-bomb friendly zone, fear not! :D

That was weird about some big parts of the movie -- the screenwriters said, what do you do if they lose, and it was like, Steve leads a support group, Nat becomes a "shut-in" (no really they said "shut-in"), Clint goes on a rampage and Bruce becomes a superhero and Tony retires. So in a weird way Bruce and Tony get their happy endings first, and both happen offscreen -- clearly Tony and Pepper came to an understanding and got married and had a kid (and fairly soon after the Snap, apparently), and Bruce integrates his two personas after they were so completely split in Ragnarok and IW. And in the heroic ending, Tony is dead (I wasn't thrilled that apparently the solution to PTSD is to....die killing what traumatized you) and Bruce is terribly injured, and he doesn't sit out the final fight but he's not part of the three-on-one Heroic Trio taking down Thanos. And his snap, which actually brings everyone back, is much more subdued (and instantly overshadowed) and IIRC takes longer than the results of Tony's snap.

The Russos/screenwriters are giving a whole lot of "explaining" interviews which actually contradict each other (sometimes it happens in the same interview even) so I just don't think there's truly any way to make the time travel in this make sense. It's amazingly sloppy and insubstantial worldbuilding (and despite the people who say you can't criticize it because "Comics!", the movies aren't the comics, although the MCU appears to have been opened up to the multiverse in this installment). Steve was in an alternate universe, yes, Old Steve was in our timeline, no, how and where Steve got the shield is a ~mystery (this might come up in the Sam/Bucky series?), and yes there are two Caps but they don't see this as a problem. I think they think that Steve and Steve II don't overlap? Which makes no sense. This was a movie largely driven by big set pieces and Magic Plot and Pretty, which is fine, but the inconsistencies warp the characters, and I watch these movies for the characters, not the uh rigorous logical plotting.

I thiiiiink that's what the Russos were aiming for, yeah, re "Peggy's husband". They seem insistent that Steve was not in an alternate reality but he's also not changing anything and that's him at the end, and none of that works. So our Steve is hidden in a big cupboard in Peggy's bedroom or something until 2012? IDK.

part of the reason I saw Steve's ending so much as basically a suicide was that I couldn't see any explanation but that it was some kind of pocket reality that didn't change actual reality--so he went and lived out the rest of his life in some dream

That was super unpleasant, as is the idea that he's not really with his Peggy or Bucky (or Sam if things go that far) -- they're different versions of the people he knew, and he's in someone else's life....he's effectively stealing it. Altho they seem to think that since this would happen while Steve is frozen, so no harm no foul. -- Does that mean Steve just disappears after 2012 and lets everything happen, including abandoning Peggy when she's old and ill, leaving Bucky, knowing HYDRA is everywhere? He's okay with that? And then comes back to our timeline? Is he visiting or about to die or does he want to retire here? It's so unclear and infuriating.

I feel you there.

As someone on Tumblr said, it's not just that Steve is missing out on life, but that life, in particular; the Steve they write is insistent on reclaiming the past years and the person he was in love with then. Which is, to say the least, so immensely psychologically unhealthy I can't even begin to accept it as an HEA. Much less it contradicting MOST of the rest of Steve's arc since TWS. Which is baffling, because the same writers did that movie. I have given up trying to understand it.

And the idea of Peggy being in some little pocket dream AU universe he could live in her with literally out of time and mind and then just go on to whatever else! AAAAAAGH it's so disrespectful to both of them.

I saw someone eagle-eyed pointing out that the shield Steve gives Sam apparently doesn't look like exactly like either of Steve's shields we've seen. So maybe it will become a plot point?

Yeah, apparently the pattern of circles is different and it has an inner star? But while I usually find the whole MCU serial "tune in to the next installment to find how the story goes!" thing kind of oddly charming, it feels wrong in this movie. This is the end for Steve. Even if he guest stars in that series, it's the finish of his story, and I at least wanted it to be a bit less of a tangled mess.

Also, I just read like six interviews with the writers and the Russos and now my head hurts.

I skimmed one Q&A but that didn't make anything make more sense, so I didn't bother looking for more. It's pretty clear that they put less thought to coherence than most watchers (and not just the close watchers who spot extra rings on props). There were plenty of fun bits in the movie, but a grand puzzle coming together it wasn't.

Not gonna lie: I agree with all of this. Also, your fic is a much better version of the movie than the movie. I may adopt it as headcanon just to keep from BURNING EVERYTHING.

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A compliation of my Endgame reaction posts from Tumblr

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